Karl Urban: Lotrips vs. STRIPS

[pslasher]

I was talking with thalialunacy  a while back about Karl's characterization being pretty different in Lotrips than it is in STRPS, and thought I might post about it in hopes that there are other Lotrips fans that want to compare notes. Because I'm really curious to know if it's just my impression, or the particular fics I was reading, or if other people think similar things.

I actually didn't read a whole lot of Karl in Lotrips - I know, gasp! I tended to read fic that concentrated on the Fellowship actors, and just read Karl every so often.  I think he kind of got lost a bit amongst all the other actors, especially the ones that had a lot more screen time than he did.  Both for me personally, and by the writers in general. He's not (usually) as outrageous as the other guys, so I don't think he caught as much attention. 

I really think these two RPS "characters" are shaded by the two characters he played and some of the photoshoots around the time each movie came out. Karl wore long hair and a scruffy beard at the time of the premieres and publicity for LotR.  It’s a darker look than for the Trek premiere and publicity, where his look was clean shaven and short hair, a lot of button-up shirts (even with the buttons undone), nice watches, ect. 

 

Bones is trained to save lives, Eomer to take them in defense of his people and home.  Even though both characters are outwardly gruff and inwardly big hearted, I think their training gives them a different sort of feel from each other.  I think the combination of “character” traits and RL appearance lead to some fundamental differences in the way Karl was written in each fandom.  Or possibly in how I perceived his characterization. 

 

What I remember most about Karl in Lotrips was that he was often dark, mysterious, sexually aggressive. He cursed casually, and was almost always on top.  In STRPS, he’s often written as funny, compassionate, a huge geek, and a gentleman, and Chris tops just as often (I mostly read Urbine right now).  Of course there is some overlap, with there being STRPS fics with an aggressive Karl, and Lotrips where he’s loving.  But for the most part, I remember Lotrips tending towards the opposite end of the spectrum from Trek. 

In Lotrips, Karl just didn’t seem to be written in as much detail as some of the other cast members.  For example, we knew all about Viggo’s boy and artistic stuff, Elijah’s love of music, Orli’s constant adrenalin junkie behavior, Dom and Billy‘s constant goofiness, and so on.  But not much about Karl.  I don’t even remember his geekiness being mentioned very much at all! Nor was his marriage mentioned, that I remember.  To be fair, IMDB says he got married in 2004, so for a lot of the early fic he wouldn’t have been married.  But he did have a child at the time of filming – if IMDB is correct.  He was sort of mysterious in Lotrips, and I think that mystery allowed me to imagine him as more dominant than he probably is.
 

Another reason for the shift in his personality is that I tended to read Karl in BDSM fics in Lotrips, whereas I tend to mostly read him in romance or angsty fics in STRPS.  That probably has a lot to do with it.  :D  However, probably the biggest difference in Lotrips and STRPS is that Karl is written so seriously in Lotrips: seriously dominant, seriously angsty, very sexual.  I don’t remember much fluff or sweet fic that centered on him, but there is a lot of fluffy, sweet and funny Trek fic.

However, that was the thing I loved about him in lotrips: his Uber Toppyness. You know, that dark and scruffy guy that looks like he might just fuck you right then and there? Yeah, that was the image I had of Karl and I loved it. In fact, I loved it so much that was how I thought of him right on up to Trek, where he got shown as all these other things too. It turned my image of him on it's head, and made me rethink him totally.  Although, the idea that geeky, gentlemanly Karl might go all dominant and fuck you right then and there is equally appealing.  :D

It's been really interesting to 'get to know him better' in the last year, and I find that I really like the geeky, loveable Karl in Trek. Although, I do really enjoy Uber-Toppy Karl, and am happy to find him in STRPS. It's sort of nostalgic for me. I think this fic I'm writing is sort of an attempt to reconcile those two images of him that I have - Uber-Toppy, and gentle and funny and reserved. Because I think there is something to the uber-top; in some of those pics with Chris he looks exceptionally dominant to me.

Anyway, if you want to peek at some Lotrips fics, here are a few that really influenced my view of Karl. Unfortunately, I wasn't saving links for a lot of the time I was reading lotrips, so I don't have as many to rec as I would like.  These are the ones that stood out to me, and that I have remembered (for years in the case of Smug) and gone back to find the links.  In fact, I read Smug so early on that when I wanted to rec it and realized I didn’t have the link, I couldn’t even remember the name of the fic or the author to search for it.  Thank goodness for lotrips_finders . 

Smug by helensfic NC-17, Karl/Viggo/Sean Bean, BDSM, character roleplay

This is the first Karl fic I remember reading, and one of the very first BDSM fics I read.  I think I sort of imprinted on it!  This is how I thought of Karl for a long time, and to be honest there is something about him here that I still like, even though he‘s wildly different from Trek Karl.  He’s emotionally cool, calculating, hard, and aloof.  I liked his sense of control, even though it all goes wrong after a while.

 

 

Clueless and Possessed by broadwriting , NC-17, BDSM in the second fic
Clueless is Karl/Harry Sinclair (no bdsm, just hot sex), and Possessed is a threesome with Dominic Monaghan that portrays a very heavy and very physical (Dom gets slapped) D/s relationship with Dom submitting to Karl and Harry.  Karl's written as being loving within the context of the relationship in Possessed, but it‘s a very hard-core relationship, so he‘s in no way soft here.


La Vertu Abandonnee and it’s sequel Der Falke by sileyascribbles  and arieltachna, Karl/Sean Bean (plus Orlando/Viggo and some others), BDSM, Dub-Con (Between Karl/Sean and Sean/Elijah), Non-Con (between Orlando/Viggo)
In this one he's a German Nobleman (and it's the reason I wanted to see that video where he speaks German, Thalia). He's extremely dominant, but not as cold as Smug.  The fic is interesting because it’s an AU of pre-revolutionary French society, and written in very lush, sentimental language, language you might expect to find in a “traditional“ romance novel.  The author used his full name, Karl-Heinz, and his German heritage, and it’s the only Lotrips fic that I remember doing that.  It’s an excellent fic, but a different sort of view of him than you get in Trek.

 

In case you don't want to read all of it, *g*, here are some parts that give a good overview of his 'character.' 

 

Note, on reading back over the fic to pick out chapters, I’ve realized that the authors flirt with the Dub-Con line with Karl and Sean’s relationship.  Karl is *extremely* sexually aggressive here, and Sean does not submit easily.  The authors certainly explore the psychological aspect of Sean’s humiliation at being dominated at times.  While Sean is ultimately excited by the situation and submits, he has a lot of ’Oh my  god, what is he doing to me’ kind of thoughts.  Both Vertu and Der Falc fall firmly in the ’BDSM Fantasy’ category.  I don’t know if this would be squicky for people who are sensitive to dub-con, but I wanted to warn just in case.  For me personally they didn’t cross into dub-con, but they come damn close. 

Ch 55: Here is where Karl is introduced.  The fic goes back and forth between scenes with Viggo and Orlando, Orlando and Sean, and Sean and Karl.  Skip down to about half way through the chapter to get to Karl’s entrance.

 

Ch 57: Here is his first sexual encounter with Sean Bean.  He’s so powerful and in control, and I really dig that.  The scene continues into the next chapter.

 

Ch 61: Here is where we see Sean start to submit to Karl, though he doesn‘t truly submit in full until the end of Der Falk.  The scene again continues into the next chapter.

 

Ch 64: Here Karl and Sean talk a little more about what they want from each other, a negotiation of sorts.  I like it because Karl is equally fond of pain and pleasure.


Don't Say My Name by simons_flower 
This was the first STRPS fic I read and it instantly made me a STRPS and an Urbine fan.  There was enough dominant and mysterious Karl to make it extremely appealing to me.  I read it and was on the hunt for more.

 

 

So I’m curious to know what other fans think.  Is that how you saw him in Lotrips too, or am I only remembering the fics that played into this image of him that I liked so much?  I think I had serious D/s goggles on while reading him in Lotrips, so I don’t trust myself to say for sure that’s how he was universally portrayed.  I’d be very interested to read examples of different characterizations.  You know, for research.  ;D

Comments

[sangueuk.livejournal.com]

I can't comment on the differences because I know nothing about lotr rps, having said that, this was a fascinating read! Everything you said made sense to me. :D

[pslasher.livejournal.com]

I hope some other lotrips fans pop up to add to the commentary. I tried to be as objective as possible, but I may just be horribly biased. *g* I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)

[gadgetorious.livejournal.com]

I admit, I don't even read RPS so I'm really the last person to add their two cents here, but I found this fascinating. It absolutely makes sense to me and I can look back and see how my own view of him has changed since he did LotR.

Thanks for the interesting read!

[pslasher.livejournal.com]

Lol, well I'm glad you found the post interesting! I wonder how much my/our change of view about him is due to the prevalence of video interviews on the net. He's just so down to earth in interviews. Even though he was in the LOTR extended DVD features there is probably much more video available on the web now then in the early Lotrips days. I think that has made a pretty big impact on how I see him now.

You're very welcome, thanks for stopping by. ♥

[jem80.livejournal.com]

I read Lotrips for a long time, I was mostly a Viggo/Orli shipper, the ones I do remember reading with Karl was exactly what you said. "dark, mysterious, sexually aggressive" There were a couple where he was portrayed as absuive or a really cold, calcltaing bastard who just took what he wanted. There was not a lot of fic that had him the way we are used to reading about him in the majority of Trek fiction.

[pslasher.livejournal.com]

Ah Vigorli, that's a special blend of wild and sensitive right there. :) I'm glad to hear you say my impression of Karl was correct, I was thinking I had simply forgotten all the fluffy Karl Lotrips fic, or something, lol. He's a calculating bastard in Smug, no doubt about it. But I liked that about him right up till Trek, when out of nowhere I want to read about him snuggling and having shy first kisses and such. (I think I might have to blame Thalialunacy for that) Or being the bottom in the relationship, which I never read in Lotrips.

It's like a complete 180, and I'm quite surprised at that when I think about it. I can't think of any other RPS character with such a drastic change from one fandom to another.

Thanks for commenting!

[janice-lester.livejournal.com]

It's like a complete 180, and I'm quite surprised at that when I think about it. I can't think of any other RPS character with such a drastic change from one fandom to another.

I'd be interested to know whether there was much RPF going on around Heroes, and if so how ZQ was portrayed? I fancy I see a good deal more Sylar-inflected than, say, Sasan-inflected Zach in Trek RPF. But, really, I'm so new to fandom in general, and only tend to find the RPF fandoms after getting involved with the fanfic-y side, so I'm having a hard time thinking of actors who've been RPF-ed in two widely different fandoms/in two fandoms in which they played widely different roles.

VERY interesting topic. I'm almost tempted to start hunting for LOTR RPF now, and I've had zero involvement in LOTR fandom to date...

[pslasher.livejournal.com]

Ooooh ZQ, that's a very interesting RPS character to bring up! Sylar and Spock are quite different (Sylar being evil and Spock good - although they do have some similar issues, like the loss of a parent), so that could lead to some interesting shading to ZQ's persona. I'm not sure how much Sylar I see in Zach RPS... I keep getting stuck on the selfish and conniving traits that don't transfer over to Zach... Although this requires more thought. What Sasan traits do you think get transferred to Zach?

I never watched So noTORIous (though I hear it's funny so I should), and I haven't read much Heroes RPS to speak of, so I can't really draw a proper comparison between how Zach and Karl's persona’s were handled from fandom to fandom. But like you I'm interested to maybe read more just to see.

Score! Lol, if you want to dip your toe in, here are some links to communities:
The LotR RPS tag on the AO3: There are over a thousand fics there, and you can search fics that include Karl as a character, or on relationships that include Karl. You can also narrow the list to ‘Recs only’ by hitting the ‘Bookmarks’ tab in the upper right corner, then clicking ‘View Recs Only.’ In fact, I'm tempted to do that myself just to see what I come up with.
The Lotrips tag at crack_van: Crack_van is well known for quality recs.
fellow_shippers: Active Lotrips fic community, fics searchable by pairing tags.
Plus more lotrips communities at my Lotrips delicious tag.

[thalialunacy.livejournal.com]

To butt in here, my Zach pretty much IS Sasan. Even before I had any knowledge of So NoTORIous, which, btw, is a fucking BRILLIANT show. I can't watch Sylar without laughing, never have been able to, so he's never entered into my Zach characterization at all.

And in the Urbine world, Zach is generally Sasan. IDK about Pinto, though; I've read exactly 1 and he was Sasan-ish there, too.

/babble

[pslasher.livejournal.com]

Ah well then, it will have to go on the netflix list. :) I do have to say that I had to really adjust to Sylar's character after watching Zach as Spock first. I kept wanting to cuddle Sylar or something!

I think you are right about Zach in Urbine - he's totally the sassy gay friend.

[thalialunacy.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I looked at the links. The first one is straight porn with very little characterization related to reality, so imo it doesn't count. The exposition in the second one seemed pretty 'Karl' to me but that could've just been the slang, lol. And is everyone forgetting Karl had a woman and a kid? His eldest was born during filming. I realize we don't always deal with this in Urbine either but by and large we do. I get that Karl's personality was kind of an unknown quantity; he was new to the States and Rings was a very... specific time and place. So I think fans took his height, his darkness, his tendency to manhandle, and made him into whatever they wanted that sprung from that.

Now, that's not to say Karl isn't incredibly toppy or into BDSM or whatever -- On the contrary, in fact, the geeks I know are also the most sexually deviant people I know. You and I have talked about that a little. I just... I don't think that was where the characterization came from in Lotrips, lol. It was filling in the blank of tall dark and gropey. I mean, unless there are other stories with more actual characterization? The ones you linked seemed pretty straight-up porn, and I don't think AUs are a judge of reality-based characterization, for obvious reasons. (They can be awesome! They're just... 99.9% OOC.)

idk, there might be more to it if one is in the fandom. But from here... :shrug:

[pslasher.livejournal.com]

Yeah, no one paid much attention to Karl's woman and kid in the whole of lotrips, not just these fics. They also didn't pay any attention to Viggo's wife, although his kid was brought up every so often. So the treatment isn't quite equal across the board, but it's pretty close: no wives or kids in the slash. Sean Astin's wife and kids get mentioned more, but Astin actually wasn't slashed very often.

I think the increasing prevalence of internet video may have changed the way Karl got written - more videos of quiet, geeky Karl means more stories written with him that way. Also, I think this is probably correct: So I think fans took his height, his darkness, his tendency to manhandle, and made him into whatever they wanted that sprung from that.

I keep meaning to go back and read more Karl related fics and see what else is out there, but I just haven't gotten around to it. *g* If I come across any that are significantly different I'll let you know.

As for there being more to the fics if you are in the fandom, I think there probably is, at least a little. Especially with the first fic for me personally. I really liked how Viggo and Sean used the characters of Aragorn and Boromir and their very close cannon relationship to get around Karl's rules. But that may not be of interest to someone who isn't a fan.

Thanks for reading and commenting bb!

[stormatdusk.livejournal.com]

i'm also a lotrips fan, and i found that so much of what you wrote above clicked very well with my experience. i love the fantasy of a dominant, sexually assertive karl character, too - - but i found he was so often written very one-dimensionally. bully, beefcake, even rapist. i was too crazy about him to settle for it and i found myself seeking out more thoughtful, thought-out characterizations. my all-time favorite lotrips karl is written by slashfairy, here (http://allfor1-1forall.livejournal.com/6052.html). it's a very real-feeling story of a three-way loving relationship with karl, orlando, and viggo and it's fabulous. she was kind enough to allow me to write a few small bits (http://adult-karl.livejournal.com/32909.html) in her universe as well. due to her stories more than any other, lotrips karl became a much more fully realized, in-depth character, with feelings and flaws and fears and still, yes, sexy as hell. :D

thanks for the great post!

[pslasher.livejournal.com]

It's kind of funny that Karl, one of the seemingly nicest people ever, got cast as the aggressive and sometimes cruel character so often. But I know what you mean about not settling. I'm writing a Star Trek 2009 RPS fic with Karl as a very dominant top in a BDSM relationship with Chris Pine, and I'm trying my darndest to keep him realistic, complex, loving - as well as sexually aggressive and possessive. It's a tough balance to maintain, but it's something I really want to see.

You bring fic recs, nice!!! 'The Little AU' - *snorts* It's huge! I had intended to read it before replying to you so I could make intelligent comments, but the reading it going to take much time. Is the order it's listed in that post the order to read it? I'm excited to read some loving Lotrips Karl, thanks so much for telling me about it.

You're so welcome, thanks for reading and commenting!

[slashfairy.livejournal.com]

Awwww.

Yeah, it kind of got away from me and made its own world. But welcome, and - yeah, the order it's posted in is more or less the order to read it in. The Interludes and Whispers/Vignettes parts kind of intermingle with the seasonal episodes, but ... eventually it will make its own order for you.

And even though it's slowed down, it's still going- they still talk with me, occasionally, and there're still bits to write.

[pslasher.livejournal.com]

That is SO amazing, I am in awe of writers like you who can write *so much.* I have the hardest time getting anything written, even when I want to. I'm really looking forward to getting some time to start it!